S2: Episode 10: Gretchen Rock, One Half of an Inter-Racial Couple

Gretchen and Ken Rock have been married for 52 years. Through these years, they have lived the reality that inter-racial couples have faced forever. This episode of Career Resilience talks about how they have been resilient as an amazing couple who knew they could conquer anything. We also hear about Gretchen’s career choice as a school teacher and why she decided to work with kids with learning challenges. 

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Thank you Jann Danyluk, Career Resilience.

Transcript

| 00:06 | Welcome to season two of Career Resilience, where we talk with people about their career parks and their career journey, and maybe we can all learn from each other. My name is Jann Danyluk and I'm a human resources consultant in London, Ontario, Canada. I work with Ford Keast LLP, providing human resources, advice and counsel to my business clients.

 | 00:27 | They also support people through individual one on one coaching in helping with career development. I hope you will enjoy our series where we talk with ordinary, extraordinary people. We get to hear about interesting journeys. We get to talk with people about failures, successes, advice and counsel to us as we develop our own careers. I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with these people, and I hope you'll enjoy listening to it. And now for some logistics.

 | 00:56 | Please subscribe on YouTube. Or if you're a listener, please follow me wherever you get your podcasts. And if you have a chance, I hope you'll visit my website. Careered Dash Resilience dot com. Welcome. My guest today is Gretchen Rock. Welcome to career resilience, Gretchen. Thank you. It is such a delight to have you here, and I so appreciate that we are going to be having this conversation today.

 | 01:27 | So you and I are going to talk a little bit about your career, but the bulk of our conversation is really going to be about interracial marriage, which is what you and your husband, Ken are in and have and have had for quite a few years now. We're doing this in honor actually of Black History Month. And I think also we're airing this episode on Valentine's Day week.

 | 01:54 | So I think that's kind of appropriate as well that that that is our plan for our conversation today. One of the things we do is we wander around the globe talking with people. So where are you located? I'm in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, Ontario, and that's where you were born and raised and met your husband. No, I was born in the Netherlands. Oh, so you're Dutch? I'm an import. Yes, I'm Dutch.

 | 02:23 | OK, well, that's excellent. OK, so Gretchen, let's start with getting a sense of what your career was because I know you're retired now and enjoying that aspect of life. But tell us about your career. Well, I for the first 20 years of our marriage, I stayed home with the children and did university courses as an extension student, and that took me 20 years to get a general B.A..

 | 02:55 | But I knew at the end of that I was going to become a teacher and I had this plan that when my kids were all in high school, I could start a career that would be a safe time. And it's exactly the way it worked out. My youngest was in her first year of high school when I started teaching. Okay. And did you when you were growing up? I always think I want to be a teacher. I did for a long time, but when I did go to university, I got more interested in interior and housing design.

 | 03:29 | So that is actually what my major is in now. But then I I've always known I wanted to be a teacher. I mean, it was it was given. Yeah, it's a rare yeah, it's a great career. Loved it. Loved it. And so what grades did you teach? I for a good part, at the beginning of my career, I did special education with children who had specific learning disabilities.
 | 04:01 | And there's a story behind that reason I wanted to teach that. And then I transferred. And I've been teaching mostly grade one to three all grades, actually some history, geography, whatever. But I ended my career with three years of kindergarten. I have never had so much fun in my life, so I thought I wouldn't be able to do it.

 | 04:31 | But once I wrap my head around it, it was so easy to make learning fun at that level. Oh, that's so neat. So just going back for a second, you said that you worked with children with special needs when you first started. Yes. Actually specific learning disabilities. So children with normal eye cues that very specifically had difficulty with language reading and spelling.
 | 05:01 | OK. And what was what attracted you to that? Well, to be honest with you, it was a story my husband told me about his experiences in school. And what's amazing is how resilient he is because he could tell me this story as if it happens to everybody. But I hope I can retell it without crying because it's a terrible, terrible story.

 | 05:31 | He one year, I think it was great for me and my husband has a specific learning disability. He had great problems with learning to read and spell and spell and still struggles with that. But it did not stop him from having a great career. However, he tells me this story. First of all, you have to imagine that he was the only black child in his class the last day of school.

 | 06:00 | The teacher said, I'm going to hand out your report cards and when you get your report card line up at the front of the room ready to go home. By the way, we hand out report cards as you stand. So whoever stands first is the first person in line, right? And then, he added. And one person in this class failed. Which happened to be my husband, Kent.
 | 06:29 | So picture this. All the children lined up at the front of the room ready to go home, all looking at him. Last one left behind. They all know that he's the guy that failed and would have to repeat grade three. Is that not brutal? Oh my gosh, that's unbelievable. It is unbelievable, isn't it? It's the cruelest thing I've ever heard, and I thought, those are the children.

 | 06:56 | I'm going to teach those children who could be absolutely destroyed by the fact that they just have trouble learning to read. So how does he say he came back from that? He's very resilient, he said he's had experiences in his life that would have destroyed me. And he just bounces back. I don't know what that is. Broad shoulders, I guess, but I can hardly repeat these stories without crying.

 | 07:29 | Let's switch over to talking about the fact that you and Ken are married and that he's black and you're white. You are in an interracial marriage. So let's go back to how did you two meet? Because of course, this is a love story. Well, he has been my friend since I was 12 because he's my brother's best friend and still is. So Ken started coming to our house and love being at our house. My parents loved him.

 | 07:58 | So at first, our relationship was a brother, sister type of relationship. So my brother, Adrian and Ken and I would do all kinds of things together. So it was that kind of relationship. But then when my husband, my brother, went off to university in Toronto, Ken kept coming over and we kept doing things together and it turned into a relationship. That's lovely. OK, so how do you mind telling us how long you've been married?

 | 08:30 | Almost 52 years, and they said it would never work. Actually, that's what I wanted to ask you. Did anyone say it would never work? Not my parents and not my family by any means, but my parents did lose a few friends over it because those friends would say things like. Oh, I hope they're never going to have children, they'll be so ugly and they won't belong to either race and my parents decided, well, I don't need those people as friends because we know better.

 | 09:02 | Oh, but yeah. Oh, my gosh, Gretchen, did you and did you and can talk about that sort of thing about what you were getting into with that sort of cruelty? Very little because we were very young and very naive and we could conquer anything together, you know? Yeah, OK.

 | 09:30 | So in what way would you describe the as a couple your resilience together over the years because marriage on its own isn't easy? So how would you describe how you've been successful? Because that is a lengthy marriage and incredibly impressive? Yeah. You know what? We learned very early no public displays of affection because people are offended by that or could be.

 | 10:02 | So I mean, I'm telling you we have traveled and have been so uncomfortable that my husband actually walks behind me pretending that we're not together because it's we travel is out of is off the books for us now. He's just not comfortable with it. But over the years, we've you know what? We've learned that people. We have a lot of friends and people who like us, like us because of who we are, not what we look like.

 | 10:34 | And so I had to learn early on in life, you know what? You just can't please everybody. And it really shouldn't offend anybody else what I do in my personal life. So you know what, you just I mean, it wasn't always easy, but it wasn't always hard either. We have great friends, lifelong friends. Can you tell me about when you first started looking for a place to live together after you were married?

 | 11:06 | Yeah, that was a bit of a rude awakening. We were looking for an apartment and we saw an ad for one right on Colette Avenue, so we called. Can we come and look at it? Yes, it's available. We came to look at it and he said, Oh, I just rented it out. I'm sorry. We didn't even get a chance to see the apartment. And I thought that was shady. So we went home. I called again, changed my voice and said, Is your apartment still available?

 | 11:36 | And he said, Yes, it is. Come on down and have a look now. Do you know what, at the time? I don't know if we would have had a leg to stand on to report that anybody but you know what we've decided and this is what we basically think all the time is. Why would I want to move somewhere where I'm not wanted? I have lots of people that would love to have us near them.

 | 12:04 | So what happened was a black one of the first black detectives, I think in Canada. Detective Parker, who was also a family friend of Kim's parents, rented us his place and it wasn't quite available yet. So we had to live in my mother's basement for a couple of weeks. But that was okay. Yeah, yeah. So then you eventually bought a house.

 | 12:32 | Yes, we bought right downtown, and that was mature thinking on my part, considering how young I was. But I thought, you know, Bi-Racial children should go to school where there are other interracial children and lots. It was very international schools downtown, so we stayed there actually for twenty two years for our kids.

 | 12:58 | I knew we did not want to move to any white neighborhoods with our children and have them be the only beige children in the class. So I'm in hindsight that was a really wise decision. But then we bought this beautiful place we live in now and it's in the east end of town and I can tell you, we've been here twenty five years. We were very nervous moving in.
 
| 13:25 | Because we thought, what if they don't want us there, which is a terrible way to think? But it's reality for us. We have to expect that not everybody thinks this is a great plan. The two of us. So when we moved in here, I'm telling you the lady next door. The minute we had our furniture in the house, she came over with a plate of cookies and said, Welcome to the neighborhood.

 | 13:58 | And I'm. Excuse me. And I'm not sure she ever knew how welcoming and important that was to us. I thought, OK, well. Yeah, good, because Ken's father, when he tried to move, Ken's father, was a doctor in the city.

 | 14:21 | One of the first black doctors, he tried to buy a house in South Windsor, which is a very, very, very white neighborhood or was in the 50s. And Ken's dad tried to buy a house out there and they passed a petition and he was not allowed to move into that neighborhood. So they had to move downtown and buy a house there. They did not want him out there. Imagine that so.

 | 14:50 | So, Gretchen, I mean, you've obviously spent most of your life in in this space. How do you rationalize what this is all about? I mean, love is love. And isn't that what's important and wonderful and supporting each other? What is your take on the’s nonsense? I don't understand it, and believe me, it's not as bad now.

 | 15:22 | I suppose if you ask my children, they might tell you something different, because here's the difference. My children said this to me very recently, one of my kids, they said, You know what, mom, you? You do get to be white privilege at some points in your life when you're not with us. We never have that option. We are always. Black and so I don't understand what it's like to be black.

 | 15:52 | I only know what it's like to have a black family, but you know what? I can tell you this when I go travel or go through the border or go through the airport security. It's an entirely different event when I go with my white sister than it is when I go with anyone in my family, meaning my husband or my kids.

 | 16:19 | It's an entirely different experience you adopt and I get to see the difference. Yeah, we cut through that border. No problem when I'm with my sister. I travel with my other sister. No problems whatsoever. And then when I go with like, I've been on a cruise with my husband, it is such hard work to be able to sit at a table with people who don't know us and have to basically make a huge effort to prove we're just regular people.

 | 16:57 | And some of that is probably imagined for us. We just expect it, I guess, and even more so. Ken expects always expects to be judged by his appearance. I don't think that when you grow up that way, I don't think it ever really leaves and that's why he can't travel. So he literally does not want to travel.

 | 17:26 | He would love to travel. He gets so anxious that it isn't fun for either of us. He becomes like another person. He hardly speaks. He's so stressed out that he is just it just isn't fun for either of us, you know? So you're close to your husband, you're close to your kids. What is it like for you to stand by and see that anxiety?

 | 18:03 | Yeah, I sometimes I get really frustrated with it because I love to travel. But. I don't know, the truth is, I don't know how they really feel, I know how I feel for them, but I really know how they feel.

 | 18:23 | In fact, one of the things that you mentioned was maybe a book that has influenced me in some way or encouraged me. And it wasn't until this year that I read this book, and it was very enlightening. It was. It's called BlackBerry Sweet Juice, and it's by Lawrence Hill. He's the author of the Book of Negroes. He is biracial. His mom is white and his dad is black, and he.

 | 18:51 | This book addresses what it is like to be biracial and how there were things in there I never would have thought of. It was actually quite disturbing to me, so I had a discussion with my kids because they, you know, I think they've had a great life. Who wouldn't like my kids? They're great. I'm so naive that way. But then they tell me, Yeah, we can relate to that.
 | 19:20 | It does happen to us. And I, I mean, I've been so clueless about it. In fact, my one daughter, she's struggling to read it because there are things in there that she actually hadn't thought of that made her think, Oh, is that how people feel? It's a very, it's very enlightening. Yeah, and some things I didn't want to know. Yeah, I'm sure. How has humor fit in?

 | 19:51 | Because I know you. I know you're just a live wire. You're a dynamic person. I know your husband and you're such a great pair and so blessed to have you in our lives. My husband, my life. How? How does humor lend itself to any of this? I think we have learned.

 | 20:23 | To use humor, my husband is very good at making jokes about, you know, being black. But. But not in a condescending, kind of self-deprecating way. But we do see the humor in everything. But for some reason, when he's away from his comfort zone, away from the city, anywhere away from the city, he loses his sense of humor.

 | 20:56 | Whereas I still see the humor in everything because the truth is Jan if I see a couple. And one and there are mixed couples say, I take a second look, it's not because I'm discriminating against them because I'm intrigued. And also, here's the other difference between Ken and I. This is kind of funny. I said, Can I when I got married, I said, I don't ever want to wear high heels because I'm so much taller than you, and it makes me feel so big and clumsy.

 | 21:30 | And he said, Gretchen, do you think that's the first thing they think when they see us together is that you're taller than me? And I thought, Good, good point. But I have worn heels. But we are self-conscious when we're in a new place. Yeah, yeah. So where are you the absolute most comfortable?

 | 22:00 | Church, most of our friends have developed through relationships at church, and that is because the people at our church have known us, they've known me since I was nine years old, so they got to know us as people before we became a couple.

 | 22:22 | So then I think it's easier that way when they know that you're an OK person and that who you're married doesn't really change who you are. So we've got great friends, but I have to say most of them. Those relationships developed in church, and they'd been lifelong. So, so let's turn to talking about your kids. How many children do you have? We have three children. Matthew's the oldest. He's forty nine.

 | 22:53 | And then we have two daughters who are fifteen months apart. Erica is forty six. Monica is forty five. OK, so are they married with children? Only Erika is married, no children, but I do have grandchildren. OK, good. So do you want to redo that? Yeah.

 | 23:21 | Not really, unless we do that. So let's not even mention their ages because they'll probably see this and people are always sensitive about their ages, so let's not that. So let's start again. So, okay, so Gretchen, let's turn to talking about the fact that you and Chen are the parents of three children, and I believe the term is multiracial. Do you know what? What term do you use when you think about your kids other than they're just your kids?

 | 23:50 | Well, I had to look this up because I'm so naive, but I think they're referred to as biracial. But here's the funny story is my children, because they are part Dutch and part black came up with the term Dutch chocolate. So my kids refer to themselves as the Dutch chocolate, which I which shows you that they also use humor. Dutch chocolate. That's great. How was that for you sending them off to school?

 | 24:24 | We're not so difficult because they we lived downtown at first where the school was very it's like international. Lots of kids from Vietnam, China, lots of children that were. Bi-Racial black children, white children, there was a huge variety, Greek children, so that was a good environment for our kids and their high school was the same.

 | 24:56 | And do you think that that's wonderful? The exposure to all these different cultures and people and experiences. I agree. I also would like to add that we have a lot of disabled people in our family, so my children have grown up very comfortable and compassionate about people with limited abilities.

 | 25:26 | For instance, we've had three people in our family with Down's Syndrome and three with cerebral palsy. So my children are awesome caregivers. In fact, our oldest, we have a son and two daughters. Our oldest is a full time caregiver giver to my nephew, who is who has CP, and our youngest was a caregiver to can sister, who was in a nursing home with Down's Syndrome.

 | 25:56 | And she was amazing. They really are so growing up with that as well as interracial. They're very. Caring people. You that's just, yeah, that's lovely. That's an amazing story, and you know, it's so challenging to go through this life, isn't it? It is. It is.

 | 26:24 | If anybody says it's a breeze, they are kidding you. There's no way. Yeah, it's how you handle the challenges, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. And so what would be your advice to an interracial couple? Now, and I know you feel and sad that we've come a long way, but still what would be your advice now?

 | 26:53 | Honestly, I have no idea no one gave us advice ever, because we never knew another mixed couple. But what we've noticed is we have met some younger couples like in their 30s. And somehow they don't think it's a very big deal, which is amazing to me. They don't even think about it. Isn't that wonderful? Mm hmm.

 | 27:22 | But my daughters are both. Married to white gentlemen and great guys. I don't think they find it all that easy. Not as easy as the couple that we've met that are the parents of the children, so I'm beginning to wonder if the children maybe have a harder time than we did.

 | 27:51 | I don't know. I don't know what advice I give. Yeah. Other than you keep your sense of humor about things, don't you know you can’t? You can't depend on your you can't depend on others for your happiness that I think. Yeah. What about you? Yeah. Or to validate you, exactly. So.

 | 28:17 | I mean, that is a lesson I had to teach myself is that, you know what, you have to create your own happiness and you are a good person. And if you know it good enough, you know, I guess. Yeah. You said a fifty two year marriage. That is pretty phenomenal. What are you most proud about related to your marriage?

 | 28:49 | That we both had really great careers and were accepted in both our workplaces, for the most part. There are some stories that are good, but for the most part and we have a lot of friends who dearly love us. And to me, friendship is. A big part of being successful.

 | 29:14 | I did ask you about what advice would you give to interracial couples? Your thought is that it seems things are improving, but maybe not quite as much as one would expect based on the experiences your kids have had. So what advice would you give to kids who are biracial that I don't, I really don't know.

 | 29:43 | You'd almost have to speak to them because I don't really know what it's like to be in their skin. All I know is. I worked very hard at building their self-esteem and that they were valued and that they were beautiful and they could do anything they wanted. And you know, however far that goes, I think they're pretty confident kids.

 | 30:12 | So I don't know. I worked overtime on that, probably to a fault. I was the mom who wouldn't ever step out of the house with children without their face washed hair combed, teeth brushed, dressed up. I was not the mom with my kids into Emma's job, which the kids would complain Oh mom, you're always fixing us up.

 | 30:37 | But it was important to me that they looked well cared for because back then, I don't know about now. People did judge. They would have judged me if my children had not been clean and stepped up, I really needed people to see how well cared and beautiful these children were. I suppose I was over the edge with that one just not relaxed about those things.

 | 31:09 | Yeah, who knows? So if you were to describe three things about you that. Sort of make you resilient or how you're resilient. What would those three things be? Gretchen? I think a major advantage I've had is my family has been so very, very accepting of everyone for who they are.

 | 31:36 | I think that the way I grew up has a lot to do with how I'm handling life. I think having a sense of humor has helped. And I really think. He's a tough one. I really think teaching has helped me to understand that for the most part.

 | 32:06 | People are doing the best that they can. I think most people do the best they can. I always try to remember that with children who weren't getting help at home, and then I'd have to remind myself, You don't know this kid's story. This mom might be working three minimum wage jobs and coming home at seven o'clock at night. And no, she doesn't have the energy to sit and tutor her child.

 | 32:36 | So I think we need to remember that about people. We do not know their story and because we don't know their story. Do not judge. Yeah. Yeah, OK. I said to you that I have three questions for you. The first is what was the best advice you've received about your marriage? And to be honest, I don't I don't know that we've ever had advice.

 | 33:08 | Did you get counseling or any of those kinds of things now? We were pretty naive. We just thought we could do this thing and you did. And you have. And we did, and we did it. Not that there have been tough times because that that wouldn't be true. But. It's never been about race, it's never been about money. It's usually about raising children like everybody else. That's right.

 | 33:39 | OK, so you're saying that, OK, then let me take it this way, then what's the best career advice you ever received? Don't take it personally when someone is angry with you or lashes out at you versus things because they're upset. Do not take it personally. It's not always personal.

 | 34:03 | And I tend to be someone who takes everything personal personally so that it is something that I've always had to work on. It's a good one. And can you repeat the name of the book that you said has influenced you? Said Lawrence Hill. And the name of the book is BlackBerry Sweet Juice. Got it! BlackBerry sweet juice thinking. And third.

 | 34:33 | What is the advice that you would give your younger self? Look for the good in people first. Always look for the good in people. I learned that. In later years, but, you know, everyone has good qualities, everyone has strengths. And if you look for those. I think it's a very valuable thing for yourself as well as for them.

 | 35:05 | Yeah. You know, that's lovely. Thank you for talking with me. Is there anything you want to add? Yes, this is with regard to a career, and you may or may not be interested in this, but I learned later on like well into my career because I'm a perfectionist. I actually.

 | 35:36 | Had a mental breakdown trying to do the impossible, for instance, I had a split grade and I tried to be two people and give each grade exactly what they were supposed to get, which is ridiculous. It's not the way you handle it, but I. Because of that, I had an evaluation that wasn't perfect for the first time in my life, right? I did not handle that well.

 | 36:04 | And so I had I had to be off on a mental health leave. And from that, I learned. That. Mental health money, and you know what mental health has to win over a career cannot be about the money. So after that break, I went back to work for the rest of my career.

 | 36:32 | Half time and thought, if that's what I need to do to keep from falling apart, so be it. And the money didn't matter to me, and neither did the pension. That is not why I went into teaching, and so it was a bit easier to handle half time now. Yeah, I you know, that's a really good point, because when we think about our careers, which are so much of our identities and we think that it's so important to keep going and going and going, and sometimes it's important to stop.

 | 37:09 | Yes. Yes. Especially now we're aware of mental health issues, more aware of them. Yeah, you realize lots of people have these issues and it doesn't take much to push someone over the edge where they all of a sudden just can't handle it. And I think the pressure to be perfect. It's also not a good thing. Do you think our society has that pressure to be perfect?

 | 37:39 | No, I think I did it to myself, I've always been that way forever. Okay, so that was your style. That was my style. I'm not a personality. Those are the people, though, that go into teaching. You know what someone wise once said to me that your greatest strength is also your greatest fault? Right? Yes. Yes. It's so true. Is that it? It is, as you say, that, I think.

 | 38:09 | Yes, like I I've done well, I've achieved a lot. I've had I've got great teaching stories of kids with learning disabilities who have university degrees, but boy, it's also what pushed me over the edge trying to be, you know, trying to convince myself that I. Every child I ever taught, I used to say, if this was my child, what would I want for him?

 | 38:39 | And that is a lot of pressure. Yeah, especially when you're trying to teach two grades at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, it's a journey, isn't it? It's a journey. Yeah, it's been a good journey. It's been a great journey. You're an amazing woman and husband is an amazing man. And I so appreciate that you would chat with us like this and share those stories.

 | 39:07 | And I just I know that we barely scratched the surface of your experiences. And yet look at you. You're beautiful. You're smart. You've got gorgeous backgrounds in your home. I just think that you're amazing and thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me. I hope it was useful. Thanks, Gretchen. So to our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining Gretchen and me today for this.

 | 39:38 | As I said, scratching the surface discussion, we deliberately did this in Black History Month because that's such an important time of year and something to think about every day how we treat each other. It's just sometimes bewildering, and it's sometimes incredible because we're also doing this on Valentine's Day week. And that's also what it's all about is caring for each other like Gretchen and Chen and her kids and in her friendships.

 | 40:10 | So thank you for joining us. Please follow me wherever you get your podcasts. We're also on YouTube and take a look at my website Carrier Dash Resilience dot com. Thanks for joining us! And until we meet again.