S3: Episode 9: Claire Revell: Director & Chief Executive Officer, Intellek

“So I bought a book and taught myself how to program.”

After deciding a career in Tech was for her, Claire Revell made it happen. She rose to be the Director & CEO of Intellek, an international e.Learning company with its head office in the U. K.  Intellek offers Learning Management Systems (LMS) and e.Learning programs to firms in the U. S., Canada, Europe, and South Africa. More recently, Intellek is adding a focus on  training the learner in the live environment. Claire advocates for women in STEM (Science, Technology, Engineering and Maths); she also has built her philanthropic organization, Opening Doors, based on her love of South Africa. There is so much in this conversation with Claire, especially for people who are willing to make and take their own path.
 
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Jann Danyluk, Career Resilience. 

Transcript

 | 00:12 | I'm so excited to welcome you to season three of career resilience. My name is Jann Danyluk. I'm a senior human resources consultant at Ford Keast, a progressive accounting firm in London, Ontario, Canada.

 | 00:26 | Each week I get to talk with people about their career path and their career journey and maybe we can all learn from each other how to be a little bit more resilient in the challenging world of work. Please check out my website career dash resilience dot com where you'll find season one and season two and now season three. Welcome. Love what you do and do what you love. The best career advice I've received follow the fun.

 | 00:54 | Those opportunities will just organically and present themselves. You know, establish those connections and maintain those connections. Acceptance just means accepting what is. I don't think we should just put ourselves in a box at the end of the day. It was always me that I said, I'm not doing good enough right now. I want it to always be you know movie night on Friday night. And my guest today is Claire revel. Did I pronounce that correctly? You did. Okay. Great.

 | 01:23 | And Claire has worked in the tech space since 2003. And has risen to become director and CEO, chief executive officer of intellect, which is an E learning platform and program will get into a little bit of what that is later on. So I think that's where I'm going to stop doing the introduction because we have lots to talk about and the story will unfold as we go. So Claire, welcome to career resilience. Thank you, John, for having me. It's a delight to have you.

 | 01:53 | And you and I are both aware we worked hard to get together and do this. So more delightful to have you. When there's a world is away. So there's three things that I really want to chat with you about today. And that includes your career journey and I also want to talk about your advocacy with women in tech or stem overall stem standing for science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

 | 02:20 | And I also would like to get into some of your philanthropy through the open door initiative because I think that that just rounds everything out so nicely. So, but to get us started, I would like to hear a non work interesting fact about you. Oh, interesting fact about me. I'm not that exciting. I was asked this put some social posts out for the teams.

 | 02:49 | Everyone kind of get to know the team. And mine was that I'm terrified of cows. I live in the countryside, a beautiful area in Devon in the UK. And we're surrounded with fields with cows and I was chased by one as a child and since then I've just been terrified. I can go near horses, that's fine, but cows just there's something about them. They actually be terrifying me. Well, if you were chased by one as a child, I don't think I've seen a cow speed up.

 | 03:19 | The bullets can run quite quickly, so I learned. Wow, that would be scary. And that would stay with you. Yeah. So there you go. There's a random fact. Well, that's a very interesting random fact. I have a thing about bats myself. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm not fond of bats swooping around. Not that I was ever chased by, and you can't do anything about them. They're protected. So if you have them in your loft and your house, then you're stuck with them.

 | 03:49 | I don't know you know. That just brings me to the point that you are located in the UK. And I'm located in Canada, and I don't know if bats are protected here. I've never really looked at it. Wow. It's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. They definitely are here. Okay. Let us switch back to work and leave cows and bats behind. So for context, can you describe a bit about what italic does for its business?

 | 04:19 | Yeah, absolutely. Intelligent is a founding member of the learning technology, the business has actually been going for 32 years now, 33 years. And it's been a long journey. And today, we are still in the learning company. We develop E learning courses for businesses. A lot of it is off the shelf content. Predominantly, we work with law firms, our heritage has been in the legal industry, but we do work with other sectors as well.

 | 04:48 | So we have a range of E learning courses. We also provide a learning management system. So basically a learning platform that allows businesses to host all of their content, whether it's our content, other vendor content, content they create, everything in one hub for all of their employees. They can schedule training, assign mandatory, learning path, syllabuses of learning, so all about being able to deliver and create content.

 | 05:15 | And then we also have a couple of other tools that are definitely starting to disrupt the industry. We developed our sort of 7 years ago, but now we're really starting to see businesses leverage and kind of adopt that learning in the flow of work. So imagine, for example, you're using Zoom as we are today. And a new business is rolling this out across their company, then everybody needs to be trained on it.

 | 05:45 | So we can provide them with the content for that. The difference for us is rather than looking at video content where you know as a learner, you're sat at your desk, you need to create a new Zoom meeting, or you need to make some changes to your settings. You don't want to have to go and watch a video. You don't want to be taken away from your workplace, your workflow, your desk. Or go to a classroom training session. So what we do is we train the learner in the live environment.

 | 06:14 | So it would actually come up with an instruction on screen, and then it would show you with balloon tips, how to complete the task in the live environment. So a different approach to the traditional E learning that some businesses are used to. But it's definitely seeing a sort of yielding those results for lots of our clients. So yeah, that's what we focus on. And are your clients Clare beyond the UK? Yes. So actually, a lot of our clients are in the states.

 | 06:45 | We also work with firms across Canada. Europe, UK, and also South Africa as well. So how many employees does it have? With 20 now, we just added a new person to our team just two weeks ago. And again, the team is spread across the UK. We're fully remote. I actually closed the offices during the pandemic. Everybody voted that they were happy to stay working remotely. We do meet up when we can.

 | 07:15 | In the UK, for those that are local to me, we meet up once a month, which is great. But I've got a new team member in Canada. She joined last October and obviously how we originally met. I have some team in spread out across America. I have a developer over in Spain and then in the UK as well. So global time zones are fun. Yeah. Getting everyone together. So I could ask you all sorts of questions about that because that's a small team to accomplish so much.

 | 07:47 | But I'd like to move back to talking about you specifically. So how did you arrive at the director and CEO level? Because you know, only a few people reach that level, it in companies. So what is it intrinsically about you that you went for that and achieved that? It's a long story. But so I started with the business.

 | 08:16 | I actually, when I was 19, I wanted to I didn't want to go to university. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I loved working with tech. I enjoyed business studies at school, despite my teachers telling me that neither of those subjects were for me and I shouldn't pursue those. But I did. And I was working in an admin job just in a local business here in the UK. I was there for about a year.

 | 08:43 | And then I overheard some of my teammates, talking about a website that needed developing in-house. And I thought, that sounds quite fun. I could do that. So I bought a book and I taught myself how to program how to develop. And I loved it. So a few months later, I found that there was out there was a position going for tutor pro. So intellect is what we are now, but we were true to pro when I joined nearly 20 years ago. I'm showing my age now. And.

 | 09:14 | So I started there. And I loved the business. We were only a small team back then. A smaller than we are now. And I worked my way up through the ranks. And in 2010, I actually lived in South Africa for a number of months. So whilst I was working for the business in the afternoon, I was volunteering in the projects in the mornings. And that was really kind of the pivotal moment for me. I was VP of client success.

 | 09:42 | I had transitioned from developing to helping out with clients working with the sales team. And really enjoyed connecting with people. I understood the products because I've been developing them. So it was a really easy transition for me. I could just explain how we were solving a problem. So yeah, so I moved up to VP of client success over the years, moved to South Africa for a few months, was doing the volunteering. And it was that point really for me.

 | 10:10 | I knew that I could make a change. And I wanted to be at the helm of the business. We were putting E learning into schools. We were helping children found itself environment, giving access to education, and I just realized that I could do that with the business. So I came home and there was a lot happened over the coming years, but finally in 2017, I decided it was now or never.

 | 10:37 | And I literally, there were 7 of us, including myself in the team at the time. And I knocked on the door of the directors and said, I think it's time for you to retire. I've been in the business long enough. This is my bigger, bolder vision. And after meeting and some various discussions, I was appointed director and CEO. And my whole vision for the business and my charity initiative and opening doors all became a real possibility.

 | 11:12 | A couple of things I wanted to ask you about in there. How motivated were you by being told you couldn't do something or you shouldn't do something in that you said you were told that you should not go in the direction you wanted to go? Very. I like a challenge. It's the same with the house that we bought 7 years ago. My dad and my step dad said, you're taking on too much, the house needs so much work doing to it.

 | 11:38 | And we saw it, my husband and I were now my husband, about 5 times before we actually made an offer. And everybody said, you can't that's too much, Claire. You're just taking on too much. Because I was ramping up to thinking of taking over the business as well. And it worked. And I think you can put your mind to anything you know. If you have a vision and you believe in yourself and you're willing to take the time to invest in your self development, then I truly believe that you can accomplish anything.

 | 12:09 | And don't let the self limiting beliefs of others hold you back. Was it a conscious decision not to go to as you guys say uni? We don't say we say university. We see the whole word. Was that a conscious decision? Because that's kind of you know the path. It is. Yeah. So I had finished my GCSEs and gone to do my a levels.

 | 12:38 | I was 16 to 18 when I did my a levels. Well, that's what it is here in the UK. And then you go to university. But I was in the last year of my a levels and I realized that you know I was 18, I was socialising. I knew that university would have been about that. So I would have got my student loan. I wouldn't have been you know doing the revision and the exams. The exams were never for me. I think that's one of another reason why my business studies teacher and IT teacher told me that not to pursue those subjects.

 | 13:09 | I was great at coursework. Finding my own way by, you know, reading a book, listening to a podcast. Watching YouTube videos. I can learn and I can implement, you know, find a solution. But when I was in an exam environment, that just wasn't for me. So yeah, I made that conscious decision knowing that if I had gone to university, I wouldn't have got the grades I wanted because of the exams. And it would have just been a social aspect for me.

 | 13:37 | So it was better for me to move forward and invest in my own learning in a different way. Wow, that's very mature thinking at 18. Mature thinking some people thought I was mad, but yes. You know, I believe that everybody should have access to education, but I don't believe that the traditional education system is for everybody. Yeah. And I have a lot of issues with the UK education system.

 | 14:08 | They don't teach financial literacy in the way that I think they should. I take on I took on apprentice last year and she had no idea about financial literacy. She didn't know how to manage her own personal money. But you know we've got a course here in place and I do hands one to one to help improve that same with my children. And I think there's a lot missing from that. So whilst I believe that everybody should have access to education, I don't think it has to be the traditional path for everybody.

 | 14:40 | So just to describe a levels for a levels, it's what you take between 16 and 18. It sort of to prep you to go on to further education. Now, you've gotten involved now in T levels, which is a fairly recent innovation or whatever in the British system. So you started a separate company related to training around for kids for tea levels.

 | 15:11 | Is our T levels more technically inclined? So when you leave school in the UK at 16, you can you have to stay in education now until you're 18. That never used to be the law when I was at school, but it is now. So a levels are optional. You could have I could have left at 16. Okay. So you can do an a level, which is two years at school. You stay in school and you choose your subjects and you do those exams. You could go off to college and do what's called a BTech. Exam, or you could do an apprenticeship.

 | 15:41 | Which is where you go out to work and you do 80% in a work placement for two or three years, depending on the course that you've chosen. And you spend 20% in college. So my son is actually in my eldest stepson is doing a carpentry
 apprenticeship and he does a week of college a month and the rest of the time he's on site. The now the UK government is phasing out the BTech and they're bringing in the T level.

 | 16:07 | So yeah, the new business I've set up by cofounded cyber academy supports that for colleges and the students and the employers, the triage that are involved in that new initiative. And what that is, is basically the flip side of an apprenticeship. You spend 20% work placement and 80% in college. Yeah. So for those children or for those students that aren't quite ready to stay or don't aren't ready to go to the work for 80% of the time, but also don't want to stay in school for all of that time either.

 | 16:40 | Yeah. Yeah, that's a very interesting dip your toe in the water, if you like. Yeah. So are you entrepreneurial? Yeah. I think there's you know a lot of people say that they're entrepreneurs and lots of different businesses. I think you know we all have it in us if you want to solve a problem. If you can fix something, then you know find a solution, then yeah, sure. So let's talk about women in tech.

 | 17:09 | And that's very important to you. So how do you action that? I advocate for a lot of initiatives. So I go into schools and talk. I think there needs to be more role models. A number of the colleges locally will have men come in and talk about tech work placements and I think you know that's the challenge because young girls want to see a woman come in and talk about opportunities.

 | 17:41 | There's still a lot at the high schools that they don't really influence or encourage young girls to pursue those careers. And I think being able to go in and actually having discussions one to one or doing a talk you know can have an impact. And then yeah, just networking and sharing experiences and you know just kind of exposure, really, things like this. It's just spreading the word, isn't it?

 | 18:09 | And you know giving young girls the opportunity to look at role models and know what opportunities are available to them. Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. My sister actually has her kids and we're at the moment involved in a sponsoring the workshops that they're doing for children age 8 to 15. And I'm going into to do a talk and some seminars and workshops with them. Around tech.

 | 18:37 | So you know I think it's just about getting involved and sharing what possibilities are out there. As I say, when my apprentice joined last year, she had no idea that she wanted to work for a tech company. She just didn't know what roles there were available within a business. I think when you say tech you know, people think, oh, you have to have to code you know. That's where I started, but that's not the only job role that's possible in a tech company. So you know it's just about awareness and educating people. Children, but also parents you know.

 | 19:09 | My parents never knew what was possible for me. I would never have been encouraged by my parents to pursue that. They weren't educated on that. They didn't know what was possible. So yeah, just as much as I can do to spread the word in various different channels and just keep talking about it. How many hours do you work in a week, Claire? A lot. I used to do about 80 to 90 hours a week. I am down to about 50 to 60.

 | 19:40 | Now, teams growing. I've learned to delegate. And yeah, I don't know. My mom will nag me. She will say, you work too many hours. That's, you know, her philosophy. But it's like me saying, I mean, what's your favorite hobby? What do you do in your first time? Are you asking me that question? Yeah. Yeah. What do you do? I am a major reader of anything, whether it's educational, true, fiction, whatever. I'd love to read. Okay.

 | 20:08 | So if I said to you, you read too much. Work isn't my business isn't work for me you know. I have my office at the end of my garden. I just very comfortable here. I don't see it as work. That's the only way I can explain it when people say you work a lot of hours or you work too many hours. For me, it's not work. Especially when the philanthropy element comes into play as well. It's navigating a change, so. You know what?

 | 20:37 | That is a really interesting insight, if anybody were to say to me, you read too much. I would just be so astounded to hear that. And so shocked because how would that be possible? So yeah, when you're that integrated with what you do and your belief in what you do, I can see what you mean. Yeah, it's you. It's an intrinsic part of you. Yeah.

 | 21:06 | So when we talk about career resilience, one of the things that you say about yourself is that you have grit. So can you tell me a little bit about what you mean by grit? I think it just it's like grit and determination, isn't it? It's that you know not letting the others have an impact on you know their self limiting beliefs impact you. It's the belief in yourself.

 | 21:33 | It's the fight, the passion, all of that that just keeps you going. I was asked this morning one word to describe myself and it would be determination you know. I am the determined person. And I think that all plays into it you know. Great determination, whatever word you want to use. Yeah. It's just having that momentum and motivation to move forward and to keep going. Yeah. Yep. How have you had to be resilient in your career?

 | 22:04 | It's a very male dominating industry. And I think you know it's easy to it could be easy to give up. And you need to find ways that you can bounce back and to not let, again, others impact you. And I think you know knowing having a vision and just focusing on that keeps you resilient and being able to achieve what you want to do.
 
| 22:33 | If you actually had people say to you, you're a woman, what are you doing in tech? Oh, I could tell you so many stories. I've heard it all in the last, like I said, 20 years, this August I've been in business. And I've heard it all. Even recently, your technical, aren't you for a woman? And you know people put that on the end of it. You know, can we speak to when I was when I transitioned from developing to initially, I was just working with sales and renewals.
 
| 23:00 | I would go and visit potential clients and I would have men in the room. And I was often the only woman. And it was, well, can we get your technical guys on the phone? And I would just smile and say, you can ask me. I'll probably know the answer. And it was just having that confidence to do it. And it used to it used to make me cross and I used to get frustrated. And now I just smile and think, that's your belief and you know that's just the world we still live in, unfortunately.

 | 23:30 | But yeah, I've heard it all. It's not just the female. It's how blond is perceived. I went to London for a conference a few years ago. And I took a friend of mine, and she was dark haired, and she knew nothing, but I was nothing to do with tech. She's an opera singer. She's amazing. And she came with me. It was great fun. For a few days and she helped me out on the booth. And she was you know stood there and holding leaflets and stuff. And it was great.

 | 23:57 | And every time someone came towards us, whether I was busy or not, even if I wasn't busy, we'd both just be stood there. Every male would walk towards her first. And we just became a joke because it was, you know, she would make herself look busy, and I was to their available. And they'd still go to her. And just became, you know, you just can't let things bother you. But yeah, I mean, it's still a very male dominating sector.

 | 24:26 | And I've heard a lot of worse stories from some of my team that they've shared over the years. How they've been approached and situations they've had to be in. So yeah, it's a shame. But there's also a lot of incredible men out there advocating for women. So you know it's not all men, thank goodness. I think listening to you, what comes to mind for me is the importance of having some kind of sense of humor about it.

 | 24:55 | Because you know it's just so inappropriate, and I don't know. I thought that we had come a lot further than what you're describing. And I understand what you're saying. There are so many supportive men and so many supportive organizations and all the rest of it. But these things that pull us back into a different world are kind of kind of shocking to me in 2023.

 | 25:27 | It is. I mean, you know, the needle is moving. It's just moving very slowly. You know, but I think there's a lot more available to us now to you know a lot more social media channels, a lot more people are talking about it. It's awareness, it's educating men on you know another women on how they go about things in business. Diversity in the workplace you know. It's a huge topic at the moment that everybody's talking about.

 | 25:56 | And it's amazing. And that needle is moving, but it's moving slowly. Yes. And I think we could have an entire conversation clarify. Of social media. Yeah, absolutely. You love to hate it. Yeah. So tell me about your South African sojourn. And how that came about that you decided to spend months there back in 2010.

 | 26:28 | We probably need another hour just for this. I could talk about it all day long. I have so many stories. It's just the UK is my home, but South Africa has my heart. There is something about South Africa. Once you go, it's just, it's in you. That's the only way I can explain it. And you can share stories and I have told my husband over the years, so many stories. And it wasn't until he finally came with me for the first time in 2017. I think it was.

 | 26:57 | He actually experienced it. And he said, I had no idea. And I said, I've told you. And he's like, it's not like you have to experience it. So in 2008, I went to a family trip. I've got some family over there. And we went for a big 80th birthday party of my great aunt. And we went to Cape Town initially, and then we went to durban to see some other family. And she's not my auntie, but I call on my auntie Sarah. She has a business and she is a charity on the side.

 | 27:29 | Which is kind of where I got the original idea about having intelligence and opening doors. And she took us out to various different projects and schools and we were only there for three weeks, but it was the best three weeks, you know, ever at that point for me. And I just fell in love with it. I love being out in a project in the townships. I loved meeting everybody. It was an incredible community. I've stayed in touch with everybody. And then I went back again for two weeks on my own in 2009.

 | 27:59 | And then I wanted to go for a longer term. So I thought, okay, how can I go for three or four months and not need a sabbatical or take some, you know, some lengthy time off of work. So I found some a business partner over there that was looking to sell E learning in durban. So I approached the director of the business at the time and said, look, I've found a potential partner for the business, a reseller in South Africa, and I also want to go and put some E learning into schools, free of charge, and he said, absolutely, go.

 | 28:33 | And I said, oh, you know, our work while I'm there, but I'll do 6 o'clock in the morning until two volunteering. And then I'll do two to ten in the business. And he said, yeah, absolutely. So you know I was always grateful for him for supporting that. And then I was there, yeah, for four months now. And that's just, yeah, it's incredible. I love it. I absolutely love it. So I met some amazing people. So tell me about open doors.
 
| 29:02 | What's that? Yeah. So when I went and actually when you talk about resilience, I think a lot of it comes from probably the children you meet over there, friends and family will say to me, isn't it? Don't you get so upset going? And I said you know, I always share that when you go, these children live in, you know, excruciating environments, and they go through so many terrible things. And they're all smiling. They all have a smile on their face.

 | 29:29 | And I think that if they're resilient enough to be able to you know be happy and try and succeed and excel and have opportunities available to them, then you know we come home to this. There's just no comparison. So yeah, so when I went in 2010, I was, as I say, volunteering in the projects. And when I was out one day, we were providing food parcels to one of the areas.

 | 29:58 | And there were three boys I came across. Linden, he was 13 at the time, and tobacco, he was four. And they had the little cousin as well. And when I went in, the mom has sadly, she was in the shack. She'd passed away. And her body was still there and the children were just stood. There was nobody around to help the community didn't really, you know, they had to wait for the coroner. So I went to my contacts that I'd been volunteering with and we escalated that and they came sooner.

 | 30:29 | And it was a Friday. And I said, well, what happened to the children now? And she said, they'll be here and you know we'll try and help them next week. Well, I was like, I can't leave them on my you know on their own weekend. They're children, you know, that's just something you can't do. So I found them a local children's home for the weekend to stop the road drove them up there. And then I went back on Monday and there was a lot obviously around it, but in short, I had to attend court and I took responsibility for them, legal responsibility for them.

 | 31:02 | To find them at home. So we went shopping and we had some you know spent some time together and it was the most amazing time. They will I think they were the ones that really made me realize that I could make a difference. And those two boys were just always be with me. And I get emotional. So anyway, I found an aunt for them. Aren't Joyce? She only lived about an hour away.

 | 31:32 | So I went and visited her with the boys and I said that, you know, could they come and live with you? And she said, I just can't afford it. You know, their school fees and everything. And I said, that's fine. Our fund the school fees, I'll get their bedding, their school clothes, everything. I'll send you money from the UK. If I do that, are you happy to hear you know look after them? And she said, of course, you know, it wasn't even very much you know. The school fees are minimal. So that's what happened. And then I went home.

 | 32:02 | It was a very emotional few days. And I've stayed in touch with them ever since. Lyndon is happy. He's got a partner and two children of his own. Tobacco still at school. I go and see him whenever I go back and visit. And it was then I realized that actually there is things that we could do as a business and it was in 2010 that I wanted to come home and thought actually if I had a charity available that partnership with the business that I could you know, every percentage, a percentage of every sale of intelligence goes directly to a thousand hills.

 | 32:39 | And we provide free learning through my opening doors initiative. And it was all about opening doors. That's you know where the name came from, opening doors to a safe environment, opening doors to education. And yeah, that's where it all came from. That is an amazing story. On so many levels, for your open door initiative, how many kids do you think you've impacted over the years? I don't know.

 | 33:09 | A few hundred, definitely. Yeah. So we provide the E learning free to schools. We are now expanding it. So we've opened up into Uganda. I do want to take it global. I do want to be able to impact other countries as well as in shange and just outside of durban is where it started, but I definitely want to take it global. We have the free learning, one element, obviously, boots on the ground.

 | 33:35 | And a percentage of, as I say, the sale of each cell of the subscriptions goes towards it. And then we've also set up a new program, a reentry program. So for those that have been in prison, have access to free skills training. So to help them back into employment, and again, at the beginning, back in 2010, when I thought about my initiative and setting up opening doors, it was just about, you know, where I was at that point in durban, but it's definitely grown.

 | 34:09 | And I never would have thought the prison element would have been involved, but it's just, again, it's all about opening doors to new opportunities and second chances. And closing knowledge gaps and bringing it all together full circle. And they're just aligned with the business. And we actually rebranded so tutor pro, as I said, was a business thing when I joined in telek is we rebranded in January and it means intellect in Africa.

 | 34:36 | And our logo, the springbok is the gazelle in South Africa. So again, it all manifested and all came together. Yeah, obviously, I did look at your website. And it's so lovely to see that what I would call a gazelle. Because yeah, springbok. There was just something so lively about that. And well, in the antlers, represent the female, so it being woman led.

 | 35:09 | So again, bringing that women in stem and women leadership. Yeah. Into play as well, which is really key. Yeah. Yeah. There was just something about looking at that springbok that was really sort of inspiring. It made you smile. Oh, thank you. And you know why? Just smile is a good thing. Absolutely. Absolutely. So who had the biggest influence on you as you were growing up and working through your career?

 | 35:42 | That's a good question. I think everybody impacts you. I don't think there's been one person that's had the biggest impact. My auntie Sarah, who's not my auntie, but my auntie Sarah, you know, she was the one that got me started on this. The grit and determination definitely comes from her. The philanthropy element of it, dawn Le Pen, who started a thousand hills, definitely taught me how to navigate a change and pay it forward.

 | 36:11 | So that had a huge impact on me. I think if I hadn't have spent all of that time with them back in 2008 and 2010 you know, the business probably would have been very different now. So that I have to say that has been a huge impact. So yeah, I think you know everybody impacts you. Whether it's a positive impact or whether you meet somebody that you think actually I don't want to be like that or I want to do something differently to how they're doing it.

 | 36:37 | So yes, I think that they for Sarah and dawn for the way that the way that my business and philanthropy side has come together, I definitely have to pay that thanks to them. So I wanted to get into my three questions that I have for you that so the first is, what has been the best career advice you have received? Say yes and figure it out later. See? Yes. Absolutely.

 | 37:07 | So say yes to what? So you have to everything. Even if you don't know, even if you think you can't do it or you think, oh, I would have said yes, but I can't do that because I haven't learned this or I can't do that yet because I don't know how to overcome that problem or there's always a but. Say yes, because you don't know where the opportunity is going to take you. And once you've said yes, figure out how to do it. We're all winging it in life. So figure out how to say yes.

 | 37:36 | I love that. I absolutely love that. So yes. Okay. Secondly, is there a book that you read that inspired you or a podcast that you listened to that influences you or just interests you? Or even something that you streamed on a streaming service? I'm always reading. I don't think there's one thing. Street kid was a great book.
 
| 38:05 | I loved. That was all about a child in South Africa. That I loved that kind of the philanthropy side of it. No, I mean, I'm learning all the time. I just have such a thirst for knowledge and fictional TV program, Olivia Pope. Have you watched scandal? Yes, yes. Yeah, I love her. She can solve any problems. She says yes and figures it out later. True. Yes. I love her.

 | 38:34 | No, I think you know there's a lot of women I look up to in the world and you know a lot of incredible strong leaders and philanthropists that have a huge impact. I don't think there's one thing I've ever read or you know that's had the biggest impact. Always learning. That was helpful. Okay. And what are you most proud about related to your career? Knocking on the door in 2017 and asking for that position you know.

 | 39:06 | Saying that they weren't looking for a CEO, they weren't looking for a new director. And I think a lot of the time people wait for the opportunity to come. And then when it does come, they might say, I'm not quite ready yet, which again comes back to the say yes, figure out later. But also sometimes the opportunity doesn't come. Somebody's not going to ask you. So make your own opportunity. And I think that's definitely my proudest moment of going to ask for it you know. What could have happened?

 | 39:36 | People thought I was mad. It was a small business. Why would they have stepped down? But until you pitch your idea and pitch your vision, you don't know. And there aren't enough women having a seat at the table. And if you don't put your name forward, you may not get that place. Don't wait for someone to ask you. So you know I think Korea and part of this new chief because networking group and it's incredible.

 | 40:03 | And it's all about women stepping up and supporting other women and you know it's such an amazing, powerful network with women across the UK and the U.S. and it's you know knocking on the door and asking for what you want. So I've done that and it's definitely one of my proudest moments. I can certainly see why that would be that is an amazing and gutsy thing to do. I really agree that there's something to do with pitching.

 | 40:33 | It's okay to pitch. And what's the worst that can happen? Someone can say no. What's the worst that can happen? Yeah. But not only that, it also separates you from many people who wait. Absolutely. If you can see something that's worth pitching, then why not? And as you said, what's the worst that can happen? No. Yeah. Yeah. That's okay.

 | 41:03 | That's okay. And no doesn't mean now. It just means not yet. Probably just means not yet. It means that person has to acclimatize to the thought. Exactly. Yeah yeah. Absolutely. Excellent. I think it's just about giving you know women that empowerment. I do a lot with advocating for women in business and just trying to you know make opportunities happen and I think if we all you know put ourselves forward a bit more than maybe more would be available, more opportunities would come to the surface.

 | 41:34 | Yeah. Those are my questions for you, Claire, is there anything that you wanted to add before we end? No, it's just been it's been a great chat. Thank you. I think, yeah. I could talk about South Africa as a saying for hours on end. And maybe we'll have the social media conversation one day the pros and cons. Yes. But no, it's been amazing. So yeah, thank you. Thank you.

 | 42:02 | So to our viewers and listeners, thanks so much for joining Claire and me today of what a great conversation and some of the nuggets are so worth listening to and taking in and thinking about I love that about you know you read too much. But not occur to me to think about that. It is a great way to feel about what you've chosen to do for a living. And I just find that so inspiring.

 | 42:28 | So thank you for joining us this week and please if you watched watch us on YouTube if you listen wherever you get your podcasts, that's where you'll find us. And until we meet again, thanks so much.